Knobbies & Slicks Blog

Quintana Roo Illicito

2012-02-12T09:37:00.001-06:00

This is such a good read on the new QR offering I wanted to share. We have several of these coming to us this upcoming week Feb. 13, 2012

Original post:

2012 Quintana Roo Illicito

December 5th, 2011

The Quintana Roo Illicito uses unconventional frame design to produce a claimed lower drag coefficient. It worked for TriSports.com Founder Seton Claggett at Ford Ironman Arizona. Claggett averaged 23.13 MPH at IM Arizona, a new PR on the way to his age category win.

The logic is simple: If you want to make a bike perform differently you have to design it differently.

The Quintana Roo Illicito is different. The frame has no left seat stay. While the missing seat stay and massive left chain stay are the most visually striking features the SHIFT technology, improved carbon fiber lay-up, redesigned rear brake and BB30 bottom bracket also exert a strong influence on the bike's performance.

The lesson of history is that if you want extraordinary performance you must adopt extraordinary design.

The Illicito has not gotten much media attention mostly due to different industry emphasis and greater effort on product than marketing by Quintana Roo. QR has focused on the steak and not the sizzle. The logic of tossing the UCI rule book and designing a bike specifically for best aerodynamics makes sense- to triathletes. Lotus, Zipp, Softride, Trek, Kestrel and Hotta have all done it. The Quintana Roo Illicito, as the name suggests, is illegal for UCI sanctioned races like the Tour de France. For triathletes: who cares? It's designed to be faster, rules be damned. For QR designing a bike specifically for the triathlete is where they started in 1987. It excludes them from events sanctioned by USA Cycling and professional bicycle racing time trials governed by the UCI. In both politics and technology Quintana Roo walks the walk with the Illicito. They are truly 'True to the Tri' with the Illicito design. And of course, for triathlons the Illicito is entirely legal.

The Illicito is a natural evolution from the company that invented the original triathlon bike back in 1987.

Illicito was developed in the wind tunnel as are most aero bikes from Trek, Specialized and Cervelo. A major difference is that Quintana Roo invented this category: The aerodynamic triathlon bike. And, of course, Quintana Roo makes the claim that the Illicito has the lowest drag numbers where drag numbers matter most. I'm unapologetically cynical about wind tunnel drag numbers. Every manufacturer produces a 'white paper' that supports their sales agenda. On a practical level I will suggest these white papers are best used on a roll next to the loo since they are all purporting the same thing; 'Our bike is best!' They effectively cancel each other. But in the case of the Illicito something prevails: Logic. If the bike has missing frame sections, it ought to be faster simply by virtue of the fact that something is gone. If that is 'Exhibit A' then 'Exhibit B' is the UCI sanction of the Illicito.

The most conspicuous feature of the Illicito is the asymetrical rear end, but other aerodynamic design cues are less obvious such as QR's "SHIFT" orientation of the down tube.

And then there is the emerging anecdotal evidence. TriSports.com founder Seton Claggett can ride any bike, including brands TriSports.com currently doesn't sell. At Ford Ironman Arizona he rode Quintana Roo's Illicito. He had his fastest bike split ever, his fastest Ironman ever. A few weeks before that on his first race on the Illicito he had the fastest amateur bike split at a local event. While any one variable like a new bike can't be attributed with that success, it does track with the trend that Claggett made good equipment choices, trained effectively and executed a good race plan. The convergence was an age category win at Ford Ironman Arizona and a Kona spot.

We discovered the rear end on the Quintana Roo Illicito frameset was extremely stiff in out of the saddle climbs, largely due to the massive left chain stay and high end carbon fiber lay-up.

Because Tennessee based Quintana Roo doesn't have pockets as deep as Specialized and Trek, fortified by mountain bike and hybrid sales, we won't see Craig Alexander or Lance Armstrong on an Illicito. We will see an increasing number of age groupers on the bike from a live swipe of their own credit card- a more relevant endorsement than paid sponsorships.

The logic of the Illicito seems supportable: If you make a design that is tangibly different it will perform tangibly different. There is also an accumulating repository of solid results from people already on the bike. Those two factors merit attention.

If it is made differently, it will perform differently. The asymetrical orientation of the rear triangle and the massive left chainstay are apparent in these photos.

The Quintana Roo Illicito is currently sold as a frame only. Quintana Roo said there are no immediate plans for a complete bike version. The good thing is you get to pick your own components; the bad thing is this is generally more expensive than buying a complete bike. At this level most customers want a degree of flexibility with components anyway so offering the Illicito as a frameset makes sense for dealers and consumers.

From the front of the frame to the back:

For all its conspicuous features the Illicito is mostly a bike of subtle technology. It starts with the fork. Quintana Roo developed the first aerodynamic fork with the Carbonaero in the late 1980's. Their fork innovation continues with the Illicito fork. The dropout protrude forward of the fork blades adding stability to the front end, a great feature for a bike designed to be ridden in the aero position. Viewed from the front the fork blades arch away from the front wheel dramatically. This aerodynamic feature allows the boundary layer of air to pass between the rotating front wheel and fork blades at lower pressure with less drag and turbulence. The brake is mounted behind the fork, another aerodynamic que. The new brakes have very good stopping power and are a conspicuous improvement over prior efforts.

The fork on the Illicito provides stable handling in the aero position and reduces the pressure of air between the front wheel and the fork blades by maintaining a large gap from rotating spokes (right).

The head tube of the frame features a conical shape we've also seen on some Cervelo efforts like the P3. The downtube is a deep airfoil shape that harkens to Specialized's new Shiv. Top tube is a flattened shape parallel to the ground. There are two standard bottle cage mounts on the frame, one seat tube, one down tube. I appreciate this feature, rare on an aero frame bike.

Claggett's Ironman AG winning Illicito was controlled from a Shimano Dura-Ace Di2 control set mounted on a Profile "J" bend extension aerobar. Note the elegant cable inlets and Di2 integration on the Illicito frameset.

The cable inlets on Seton Claggett's Illicito were very nicely done Shimano Di2 specific and made for a clean, well conceived presentation. They also do a nice job of sealing out moisture from spilled sports drink and rain. In the case of Claggett's IM AG winning bike the Di2 battery is slung under the down tube. I'd like to see more aero integration of Di2 batteries on all aero bikes. A rumored 'Race Day' battery that is smaller may help resolve this in the next few months. For now Di2 battery mounting on every bike seems like an afterthought. Bike industry: The new coffee flavor is Di2, wake up and smell it!

Moving back on the frame you see the influence of Quintana Roo's 'SHIFT' design doctrine. The down tube angles off to the rider's right toward the crank. SHIFT technology is the first attempt at not only reducing bicycle frame drag, but also mitigating drag caused by the drivetrain. The downtube on a SHIFT technology bike sits 18mm closer to the drive side. It is claimed to 'shift' the boundary layer of air away from the drivetrain to the cleaner, non-drive side of the bike. SHIFT also seems to improve bottom bracket stiffness, a boon when climbing and accelerating. Several other manufacturers have trended toward an asymmetrical bottom bracket with SHIFT leading this trend. While the unique rear end design of the Illicito is the most visually striking the SHIFT technology may be the more effective aerodynamic design feature.

QR's greatly improved aero brakes from TRP. The right photo shows the asymmetrical orientation of the down tube, improved rear brake and clean cable routing as well as the Di2 battery mount.

Rear bake on the Illicito is a massive improvement over previous under-bottom bracket brakes. The new TRP (Tektro Racing Products) 'U' brake has more powerful return springs, is easier to adjust and holds its center better than previous rear brakes which were, admittedly, quite poor. Another benefit with this brake is the capability to work with the wider aero wheels trending now like Zipp Firecrest, bulge disks and HED's new wider rims. The brake has more 'throw' and leverage to facilitate a more open position and better leverage. This is a great improvement.

Chainstays on the Illicito are wildly asymmetrical giving the bike a lot of visual punch. The thinking is the massive left seat stay provides structural integrity given up by removing the left side seat stay. When asked if a future bike could be built with this design completely replacing both seat stays Quintana Roo's spokesperson went awkwardly silent

The eye catching rear end of the Illicito includes practical details like clearance for new wide aero wheels, replaceable, adjustable dropouts and derailleur hanger.

The rear dropouts on the Illicito are all alloy and very robust. They empty to the rear of the bike and are horizontal. At the top of the seat mast there is an alloy binder clamp that uses two bolts, another practical design feature.

One thing that struck me working with the new Illicito is that it is a superbike you can travel with. Most other aero bikes with substantial component integration might not work well going into a flight case and, if something goes wrong when you are at an 'away' race there may not be mechanics and parts on-sight to service the issue. With the exception of the brake calipers, the QR Illicito frame uses fairly standard fittings and fasteners.

Quintana Roo stayed true to their lineage with the fit and geometry of the Illicito since the bike can be ridden at an 80+ degree open seat tube angle. The head tube is a stable and comfortable 72 degrees across every size. Head tube height on the two smaller sizes, 'Small' and 'Medium' are a low 90 millimeters, tracking with Cervelo's P4 and P3 and Felt's 'B' and 'DA' bikes. There are four sizes in the Illicito called 'Small', 'Medium', 'Medium Large' and 'Large'. I am 5'9' and have a long torso so I would be on the 'Medium Large' with the 54cm top tube and the saddle in a forward orientation to open the angle between my torso and femur at the top of the pedal stroke. Seton Claggett, who prefers a more compact position and a slacker effective seat angle, rode the 'Medium' for his Ford Ironman Arizona Age Group victory.

QR stayed true to the tri with their steep angle geometry for a comfortable, open torso to let position in the aerobars. Seat tube angle is adjustable through a wide range.

There have been a few bikes important enough to influence triathlon specific bike design- most have been from QR over the past few decades. The Quintana Roo Superform was the first to make a real impact on athlete performance and the market. The Illicito may be another. The Illicito puts Quintana Roo firmly back in the top ranks- if not at the very top- of triathlon bike innovation and performance.

QR's Illicito renews their aerodynamic commitment to triathletes from Quintana Roo with an innovative new design and emerging impressive results.

When is the right time to get a new bike?

2012-01-10T11:22:00.002-06:00

Vernon DeDe and his new BH GC Aero

I've been asked a hundred times since Christmas already. When is the right time to get a new bike?

Right up front I’ll tell you.There is NO magic answer.

There does seem to be how ever a magic question:

“Why” do you need a new bike?

Is the old bike worn out?

Are you components trashed?

Have they migrated several times from one bike to another?

Is the current bike holding you back, limiting you?

Does the expense seem excessive? If you break the cost of a 5k bike over the amount of time you ride it over the course of a year or two, you’ ll find the the affordability factor vs just about everything else you do is way up there, as is the fun factor.

Should you just “upgrade” the one you are on? It just depends. “Yes” if your current frame is of sufficient condition, quality and performance to justify the upgraded components. Some framesets just don’t make sense to upgrade.

Believe it or not, The best “upgrade” to get performance out of you current ride is to give it a complete and thorough tune up and over haul. It is amazing how a completely cleaned, re-cabled, tuned and lubed bike can feel.

If you really want to “upgrade” and the bike is of sufficient quality and performance, the single best upgrade is to get a lighter set of wheels. This will make it more responsive and improve handling.

Also, if you spent less than 2k on your complete bike on you last purchase, it probably doesn’t make sense to upgrade to higher level components over what it came with. At that price point, it is extremely difficult for manufacturers to produce true race performance quality both in the frames and component groups.

One caveat to this opinion; Let’s say you upgrade components, while saving up for a new frame, you can eventually move the components from this frame to the new one. IF...IF you don’t wear them out first. Because then, you just have a new frame with a bunch of worn out parts.

But really...When do you “KNOW” it’s time for a new bike?

The emotional and physiological responses a new bike stimulate are unanimous to most riders. Just the presence of a new bike has the ability to motivate you to ride, which is sometimes the single best reason to get a new ride.

So if you have been slacking off or finding other things to do lately, it’s probably time to buy a new bike.

Bud

Introducing RETUL MUVE

2011-12-28T06:36:00.000-06:00

RETÜL MÜVE FIT BIKE

The newest addition to the Retül lineup is the Retül Müve dynamic fit bike. This fit bike features simple turn crank movement allowing for XY adjustability while the rider is on the bike.

VIEW RETUL MUVE VIDEO

Cut and paste link if needed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_jx7TV6TT8

A fit bike is recommended for fitting a rider prior to his or her bike purchase. Retül Müve can be set up for road, mountain, and tri positions. The fit bike works in conjunction with Retül 3D motion capture in order for the fitter to collect rider data and immediately make bike adjustments to create the desired final position.

For more information on the Retül Müve fit bike please contact bud@knobbiesandslicks.com

Test Ride: Fondriest TF-3

2011-11-30T13:37:00.002-06:00

For that don't know me, I have a penchant for bikes of a ferrous variety. "Steel is Real" runs deep in my veins. That said, I recently got talked out of my Pegoretti Responsorium. In my mind, this bike is the benchmark for all others. Uber light, comfortable, stiff where it needs to be and super responsive. And did I mention sexy... Pegorettii's ooze it....It's a hard package to make, especially out of metal. Plus you gotta wait a few years to even get one if you order it.

Fondriest TF-3

So being without a bike to ride, I went shopping... There has been one bike in the shop that when we built it, I had a nooner with and quickly locked the ride deep in the inner recesses of my psyche for fear of being caught cheating by my dear Peg. But with the Peg now conveniently out of the way, I decided "what the hell" lets go for more than a quickie this time. So with no one looking last Monday, I snuck out on the beautiful Fondriest TF3.

Lets just get this outta the way up front. I have lusted after this bike since we got it. Pictures simply just don't do it justice. It is gorgeous. It backs up it beauty with 50t Carbon pre-preg hand laid carbon composite with a 12K weave finish with Metallic Apple Green. Frame weight of 970 grams makes it way light. Enough, that as it sits with campy Athena It porks out at 15.1Lbs. Not too shabby. But, lets get back to the ride. Did I say "sexy"...this bike has more curves than J-Lo. And the ride...the ride.... super responsive and punchy. But, it is really, really smooth. More so than I would have imagined with that big seat mast and fat curvy tubing. It lulled me into doing more miles than I had originally set out to do over and over again. Before I new it I had a real ride under my belt and still wanted more. It climbs with the best and rolls quietly along in gears I haven't been able to carry in quite a while. It's super stiff bottom bracket helped when standing. Cornering and handling are nearly telepathic. This bike left me smiling and wanting to go ride just as soon as I got off it. No small feat, as I am as fickle as they get.

To top it all off the bike is surprisingly affordable. Built up with Campy Athena it goes for about $3700. It is also available as a frame only for about $2300.

Wind Tunnel Testing with John Cobb

2011-11-09T09:08:00.001-06:00

I recently took a trip to the Texas A and M Oran W. Nicks low speed wind tunnel with John Cobb. We went to fit the Texas A and M Triathlon team as well as do some testing in the wind tunnel on aero road fits, tri fits, and some bikes. John Cobb is a tinkering genius. His ability to communicate at a a matter of fact level belies his technical prowess and understanding of physics. His mentorship and personal interest in my success has allowed me to grow exponentially.

The Oran W. Nicks wind tunnel at Texas A and M is unique because it is one of the few in the world that produce wind speeds between 0-250MPH combined with the measuring capability in units of a gram. It can actually pick up the weight of a single sheet of writing paper. Plus it offers the ability to change yaw angles and maintain a spinning front wheel, making it a very real world testing environment.

The wind tunnel itself it really cool but what really blows you away is mathematical calculations supporting it. The equipment takes 400 samples per second measuring barometric pressure, wind speed, direction, weight etc.

I expected to see some of the results. What I didn’t expect was how much each change we made in fit equates to real numbers on race day. The numbers where huge.

30 mph is standard test speed that manufactures use to test at because it is the speed that real data points that differentiate themselves begin to emerge and it is slow enough that elite and pros can find value. That said, as speed decreases, deltas between objects deminish. That is, as speed decreases, brands, models and tubing shapes become less critical due to less resistance of air pressure. In fact, ratings done at the standard 30mph in comparison to those done at 20mph diminish to the point of almost immeasurable. Hmmm....so in real world with age groupers and club level riders, fit is by far the key component to gain speed and efficiency.

Here is an example:

Lets just call this test: "50 grams equals 5 watts equals 1/2 second"

One of the students we fitted just went from a road bike, which she recently completed a 40k on, to a new Cervelo P2. She is a good athlete, does about a 6:15 mile on the run and maintains an estimated 140 avg watts on the bike.

Our initial run was of Kaitlen on her road bike in a traditional road fit which produced about 13 lbs of drag. Our second run was of her on the Cervelo P2 with her fitted to the bike the best we could with stock components. This produced about 10lbs of drag or so.

We then slammed her with a super aero fit of the likes I have been giving recently since our last fit camp with John. We also gave her an aero helmet. This fit and helmet amazingly produced about 7.5lbs of drag.

To put this into perspective, if Kailtlen were to do that same 40k bike split she recently completed on the road bike, but did it instead on her new Cervelo P2, with the aero helmet and aero tri fit (I'll call it the Aero Nija Fit) and nothing else, she would be about a full 12 minutes faster on her P2 with the new aero fit. This would be maintaining her 140 watts and not working any harder. 12 minutes!.. think about it.....

My key take aways from the testing are listed below and are not in any particular order:

Slow!

Fast!

Reducing the width between the elbows is key single most critical in terms of grams of drag per grams of rider.

Most drag occurs from yaw angles not straight ahead as one would think because it increased frontal exposure.

Rear wheel shape is not as critical as front wheel as distortion in the slipstream has already occurred so the benefit is to cutting rotational mass and spoke flap. Spoke flap creates air resistance so a disc is highly desirable. In fact a disc is so efficient that it evens the comparisons between most bikes below 30mph.

Aero helmets reduced drag by minimum 100grams regardless of style or brand that we tried. That equals 2 seconds a kilometer at 280 sustained watts. Over a 40kilo bike split that equals 1min 20secs just with the helmet.

A small diameter road tube set with an efficient aero fork is as fast or faster that aero. As diameter of tubing increase huge amount of drag develops.

8.6 lbs of drag at 20 deg. of yaw on a fat tubed road bike

Here was the culprit. Even slammed we couldn't get this bike fast

Dropping the front must be combined with narrowing as well to get the best numbers. Wide bars are SLOW! Large cranks are SLOW!

A quite head and upper body reduce cd drag.

Lower the hand position to just below level so that wrist and elbow are even seems to be fastes hand position.

Aero bars work and reduce drag on all bikes as long as the front is dropped. That said they do nothing to increase your personal output of wattage on a road bike. So they can help a little on a road bike if thats what you have for a triathlon.

Wind tends to get caught in the lower abdomen. Smaller riders gain more at slower wind speeds with majors changes. Dropping larger riders doesn't always have a positive effect as frontal area is too large.

Apparel is paramount. Huge amounts of speed can be gained from just tucking a shirt in or wearing something form fitting.

As speed increases the delta between incremental changes increase. That is at 20mph the shifter isn,t even picked up by the test equipt. At 32 mph it's creating 1-2 wats of drag.

24oz water bottle on a standard plastic cage created about 100 grams of drag. Hmmmmm.....

So there it is, It was a great learning experience and I am looking forward to my next trip. Please feel free to come see me if you would like to get more information on the tests. Also, if you havn't done so already...schedule a fit....

The Blog is BACK!!

2011-11-08T21:39:00.001-06:00

After almost a year long hiatus our blog is back!

There have been so many times over the past 10 months that we have said 'Wow, we need to blog about that' and it just hasn't happened. But as we continue to have more great experiences to share it has become absolutely necessary to get this started again.

Happy Birthday Knobbies & Slicks!!

In August we celebrated our One Year Anniversary and we could not have asked for anything more. As we hosted 60+ riders on a SAG supported ride (we were training for Hotter n Hell 100-and it certainly lived up to its' name this year), all Bud and I could do was think back a year to our very first group ride on opening day and say....."wow have things changed"!

In our first year, we quickly grew out of our 3,500 sqft space into the adjoining space giving us an additional 2,000 sqft. This was necessary as we became a Cervelo and Giant dealer! In addition to our growth, our amazing customers came back from a Saturday group ride and decided they needed a 'club' and now we have 60 members that represent the shop in our Cycling & Multisport Club! This group of talented individuals not only knows how to have fun, they can also compete!! We also opened Kenji's Place, a lounge in the shop, where we host social events, clinics, offer sports massage services and 'hang out' after rides.

We evolved so much in a twelve month period that our customers started to ask "what else do you have 'cookin' you haven't told us about"? Which leads us to 2012 and what we will be announcing very soon, so stay tuned.......

Thank you all for your business, support and friendship. Please make sure and read this blog as we will share with you our learnings, stories and thoughts.